OSI Casting On Demise

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Vander Nars
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OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Vander Nars »

Come on devs let add osi casting to demise, it would end the op teleport scripts allowing players to teleport faster than running on a mount. End the spam casting and make demise great again!
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The Silvertiger
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by The Silvertiger »

Perfect imitation of opy...
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Vander Nars
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Vander Nars »

Someone has to carry on the good work opy started.
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atomic chicken
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by atomic chicken »

This is a long one, so I put headers for each major argument.

OSI emulation -
This shard used to claim to be the closest thing to OSI besides OSI. This is a blatant lie, because the publish it's supposed to emulate had a lot of things that the Demise staff has decided to ignore and sometimes refuse to implement because they claim it's buggy. Osi casting is required to be even remotely like osi. This server is far removed from being osi-like for many reasons, but the most significant reason is the casting. I don't have to convince the staff that it is different from osi-casting because the staff has already acknowledged that it is different.

PVP scripts -
Adding osi casting would solve a lot of pvp scripting problems by mages. I think it would solve the mini-heal self/friend spam and make it more manageable than being about to get 3 miniheals off and be able to keep running at the same pace. Also, it'd solve the teleport problem which allows you to tele faster than someone can run, this is extremely broken because people who don't use scripts will almost always be slower running and teleporting by hand than the people who use the 10 tile teleport script. It'll allow the showcase of skill on timing spells in duels, which the people I've dueled on the test center have all agreed it's more fun, but that's just a few opinions, of course. This will also increase the importance of the poison spell in duels, specifically, because the whole point is to poison lock which is impossible on the server as-is without weaken spamming someone. And say good bye to the fireball/magic arrow script because currently it's remarkably hard to block without returning with a fireball/magic arrow script or weaken spam, because there is little to no penalty for spamming/overcasting.

"changing steam feature is sufficient" argument -
I agree that disallowing certain features would be a great thing. However, I don't think this would be sufficient, because 1. spamming with queued targeting most likely would be allowed which would be at best slightly slower than the script (if someone is good at pressing a button) and 2. Easy UO exists (archers will not be affected very much). I support the change steam features but I do not think it is sufficient because spamming would still be viable and would not increase the ability to disrupt things like cures.

Overcasting -
I think overcasting is valuable in both settings: duels and field, because you can't cast as fast as you can press the keys (or hold down 1 key), rather you have to time it. This will increase team coordination, instead of being able to say "I'm being dropped on" and the team holds down their "heal buddy" script which will miniheal/cure/clumsy the lowest and/or paralyzed target and rely on that to help their buddy survive a drop with 3+ people holding down the same button (I'm looking at you Mr. MB P; ), teams will have to rely on pre-casting and timing when they use a greater heal or else they'll be effective (this is one of the more beautiful things about pre-aos pvp, that people have to actually time the crossheals, I think our server needs to incorporate that). Team coordination is one of the greatest strengths of UO pvp and what makes the difference between a good and great guild.

Archers -
It's not impossible to kill an archer on osi-casting, nor is it significantly harder than the current casting. If you get the poison, bleed and/or mortal timing, you can be successful (this is true and required on both casting settings). Killing an archer has never been about spamming spells in rapid succession to beat out the band-aid timer, rather it's a well-timed use of heal-prevention and big damage spells (for the most part). There are places where archers are considered "OP" which is mainly in open-field/gate fighting, however if you put them in a chokepoint a group of archers are almost useless (hence why ES in particular is so easy to raid). The point is not that archers can't be used in a chokepoint with magical shortbows (of course they can), but the point is that the backbone of a chokepoint force is mages and are far more superior than an archer in a chokepoint. I don't think the reverse is true in the field, yes they are hard to kill, however they are not impossible. This means the balance between the two classes is location. People over blow the disparity between a mage and an archer, archers are not OP, they are effective and useful and maybe a little stronger in a 1v1 but they cannot chokepoint fight nor can they effectively crossheal meaning they are weaker as both sides get numbers. I'd take 4 mages over 4 archers any day. Sure, sometimes the archers can win but that'd be dependent upon mage skill and RNG. Also, I think there is a different global nerf that would balance out archers in brit fights, that we can discuss in another post.

PVM -
Pvmers should not be deterred, because there are few mage classes that pvm, except for tamers, but tamers have pets to supplement. The necromage/necroweavermage have alternate routes to doing spawns (in fel or in trammel rule set) by using summons (Energy Vortexes/Nature fury/Animating Dead), Spellweaving on 4/6 is still fast, Protection spell is a valid option (that I personally use on my necromage during spawns, currently). This may increase the difficulty of pvm for the few who choose to be mages, but I've played both types and the difficulty is not much more with osi-2/6 compared to runuo 2/6. The biggest difference will be the rate of spells which may slightly decrease the speed of killing something with a mage, however this should not be enough of a justification to nix the whole discussion. Also, I personally don't even see it as a down-side, because pvm right now is ultra-easy on demise, and decreasing the rate at which someone can cast a spell at a monster will be a very slight nerf that with pvm you will have a much easier adjustment, because the mobs do not cast at 2/6, they are much slower.

Potential population benefits and costs -
I know many current and old osi players as well as current and old demise players who would love this change. I will not claim that everyone ever will love this change, but I think the pvp population overall will increase, which of course I understand is not the majority of UO players who play the game. However, it should not hurt the non-pvpers (i.e. pvmers/crafters) population, because there are few mages and those mages have alternatives that allow them to adapt to the casting. It'll be a much easier adjustment to the new casting for pvmers than it will for pvpers. I think most of the players from Pestilent would probably leave Pestilent for Demise if the casting was changed to osi-2/6, simply because it is the casting that they enjoy as well as there is a significant amount of pvpers here, so they will want to move to the pvp that has the casting that they like. Also, the opportunity is now, because Pestilent's population is starting to dwindle, due to the lack of staff progression on changes (ex: their faction phase 2 was announced to be implemented like a year ago and has not been implemented since the last time I checked). I do understand there are some players who may quit the server if this happens, but in reality I believe this will be really small amount of players. This may make me sound like a dick but from a purely calculative position, the people who claim they'd quit probably won't because they are in a commitment trap of having spent so much time here that they wouldn't want to give up all their items/player progression just to prove a point about casting. The reverse is true also that people who have played her for a long time who do not like the casting can also be within a commitment trap of having items, not liking the pvp because of scripts, but are sticking it out because they don't want to feel their hard work went to waste. The people that would come-over from osi and pestilent I (and many others hold the same opinion) believe would far outweigh the few who would legitimately quit the server because there was a casting change. Here's one example, Bane who is an osi player has shown interest (within this forum) in Demise simply because there is the discussion about osi casting.

"Pest pvpers are toxic" argument -
This is not a good argument, because only some of the players from Pestilent are toxic. Everyone has toxic players, Kapero was recently banned from forums for threatening to harass opposing player's family members on facebook. From personal experience, comparing the worst thing I've seen from Pestilent and Demise (I'm sure some people have experienced worse from both sides). I'm not gonna name names simply because I don't take anything anyone says on this game to heart.
Demise: "get cancer and die"
Pestilent: "you work at a deli" not to me, but to another individual
From my experience demise has far more racism in it's trash-talk than pestilent, although both have it of course because people are assholes. The point isn't that all pest players aren't toxic, but that toxicity is inevitable with so many people and the anonymity computers bring about.

Other benefits -
It increases the viability of
-bleed mages
-melee dexxers
-bokuto mages v other mages (the combo is much better without mini-spam allowing recovery)
-necromages (makes strangle matter again because the ticks can affect you more significantly)
desalonne
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by desalonne »

+100000. I stopped playing osi in 2006 after stygian abyss dropped and broke the game with imbuing. Since then I have attempted to find a uo server that ended in the ML era while still holding true to the vanilla osi value of grinding aND providing thst server longevity.


Demise is 100% that to a point, the casting is the biggest deterant from that. I think the allowing people to afk farm runics and hw became an issue but has recently been remedied. The only thing stopping this server from being vanilla uo ML is the casting and as result it limits so much in ways of the pvp community it could acquire as well as the template diversity seen there currently.

This post covered almost everything perfectly. +1000 for a solid well put together post.
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The Silvertiger
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by The Silvertiger »

That post failed to cover what made the casting stick out so much: uosteam. Which is also the cause of "afk farming runics and hw"... With razor the casting wasn't so bad.
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atomic chicken
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by atomic chicken »

I did forget to write about this particular thing, I wrote a lot I'm sure I forgot some things.

I do agree steam magnified the problems with casting on demise, but I don't think getting rid of steam is a good solution.

It's inaccurate to assume casting with razor would fix the problems. Casting is still shit, queued targeting would give an advantage to a spamming mage over a non-spamming. Here is an example of steam not the being the sole thing to blame: reefer has won tournaments on steam vs people who likely used fb/ma scripts. He uses queued targeting and that makes his ability to spam much better than what I could do because I do not use queued targeting. This is not a knock on reefer at all, because he is a good player in both casting settings but rather it shows that despite steam that the casting is still able to be ridiculously fast. Even reefer agreed in a post on the TC forum that casting was shit even before steam.

I think the response to your argument is similar to the response about changing steamfeatures header, that casting is still broken with it. Also, I doubt they will change steam features let alone ban steam. I feel like the banning of steam would definitely make pvmers more likely to quit than a casting change. Rather, osi casting allows for a solution on the mage-front of scripting that is pretty solid I think. Because these gimmicky scripts people rely on will no longer work, not in the sense that it won't be able to function rather there will be counterplay besides spamming back/mortal spamming
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Vitek-
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Vitek- »

i hope eos leaves it as-is since there's a good balance rn. would hate to see this turn into a science experiment like osi did in recent months
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atomic chicken
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by atomic chicken »

Well osi is drastically different now than this era. However, the current casting is pretty shit and it isn't much more balanced than it would be on osi 2/6. Archers are weak in chokes, mages are weaker in 1v1s (avg mage vs avg archer).
Also, demise won't become a science experiment because the casting we are talking about was implemented and has been implemented for quite awhile on osi. We have all the data we need to determine if it's a good idea. I vote yes, some of you vote no, I'm just telling you some benefits and responding to concerns I've heard people have on previous posts in tc forum.
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Vander Nars
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Vander Nars »

Vitek- wrote:i hope eos leaves it as-is since there's a good balance rn. would hate to see this turn into a science experiment like osi did in recent months
Explain what is good and balanced about someone teleporting faster than you can run in a straight line or the ability to hold down a key and have it spam heal you without you ever having to remove your finger? None of that is balanced or good and it hurts pvp.
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The Silvertiger
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by The Silvertiger »

Vander Nars wrote:
Vitek- wrote:i hope eos leaves it as-is since there's a good balance rn. would hate to see this turn into a science experiment like osi did in recent months
Explain what is good and balanced about someone teleporting faster than you can run in a straight line or the ability to hold down a key and have it spam heal you without you ever having to remove your finger? None of that is balanced or good and it hurts pvp.
Really balances mounted vs unmounted vs ninja form... :P

Second, really balances euo bandy scripts playing in the background... :P
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atomic chicken
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by atomic chicken »

Teleport does no balance mounted vs unmounted LOLOL, it's faster than you can run away. Teleports are still useful in osi 2/6, you just have to actually be smart where you teleport.
Miniheal just makes mage v mage stupid. Also gheal is just as good as fast miniheal to answer archer heals. Also, you shouldn't break casting bc others choose to cheat in pvp.
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The Silvertiger
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by The Silvertiger »

atomic chicken wrote:Teleport does no balance mounted vs unmounted LOLOL, it's faster than you can run away. Teleports are still useful in osi 2/6, you just have to actually be smart where you teleport.
Miniheal just makes mage v mage stupid. Also gheal is just as good as fast miniheal to answer archer heals. Also, you shouldn't break casting bc others choose to cheat in pvp.
It's a joke... Why everybody always gotta take things so serious. Ooh an event...
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Vitek-
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Vitek- »

DES MANI
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Otim O'Connel
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Re: OSI Casting On Demise

Post by Otim O'Connel »

OSI casting is based on everything OSI. Mysticism, gargoyles, imbuing it goes on and on. The casting is also reflected in the monsters not just players. When people say OSI casting. I am not even sure at one point in time you are imagining? But simply having up to date modern UO casting. Would not sit well with ML era Demise. It might better suit melee characters. It might nerf teleporting. It might better twist Demise into your play style. If that is the goal. But, far as being fun to play on Demise. Ptth... Your nuts. Have you even played OSI? Or are you reflecting back to a simpler time when you pwned noobs?
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