apples/mortal

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Legacy
Posts: 448

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Legacy »

Josh wrote: Nah you're wrong. Apples were designed to be more than just a mortal removal. It'd add more dynamic pvp, it would force guilds to actually sync dump and time curses instead of spamming mortal. I understand why you are reluctant to these changes, bc your guild abuses the mortal mechanic (you're not the only guild obviously, NWO and CHN definitely abuse it too).
You do realize people usually get immediately mortalled after removing it, right? Nwo is particularly bad at this as they run basically archer alchy guys with the pb/conflag/mortal combo and try to spam it non-stop. The time between removing it and dying is usually < 30 seconds, given how big the damage per arrow currently is.

As for timing curses, yeah, that could be a thing. I usually hold my curses for when people get stunned to guarantee they don't escape due to 70 all resists tho, so I also don't see a difference here.

The only difference I see here is me having to recast all my necro debuffs all over again because the guy can spam essentially what's a costless 1 stone almost-all-debuff removal item. Considering I am basically (if not THE) the only guy who runs a 120 necro mage in the server, yeah, I find this to be a big deal and game breaking for my template (and thus make pvp less dynamic, not more), which is already somewhat underpowered as I lack spammable and reliable heal blocks, and I'd just retire him as I already have other low necro mages that are more powerful than him if not using said debuffs.
Lucifall
Josh
Posts: 1314

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Josh »

Legacy wrote:
Josh wrote: Nah you're wrong. Apples were designed to be more than just a mortal removal. It'd add more dynamic pvp, it would force guilds to actually sync dump and time curses instead of spamming mortal. I understand why you are reluctant to these changes, bc your guild abuses the mortal mechanic (you're not the only guild obviously, NWO and CHN definitely abuse it too).
You do realize people usually get immediately mortalled after removing it, right? Nwo is particularly bad at this as they run basically archer alchy guys with the pb/conflag/mortal combo and try to spam it non-stop. The time between removing it and dying is usually < 30 seconds, given how big the damage per arrow currently is.

As for timing curses, yeah, that could be a thing. I usually hold my curses for when people get stunned to guarantee they don't escape due to 70 all resists tho, so I also don't see a difference here.

The only difference I see here is me having to recast all my necro debuffs all over again because the guy can spam essentially what's a costless 1 stone almost-all-debuff removal item. Considering I am basically (if not THE) the only guy who runs a 120 necro mage in the server, yeah, I find this to be a big deal and game breaking for my template, which is already somewhat underpowered as I lack spammable and reliable heal blocks, and I'd just retire him as I already have other low necro mages that are more powerful than him if not using said debuffs.
Right mortaling right after is the counter to 30s apple’s so it means people are still killable, obviously we want that to be possible. I do however also realize people die to mortal a minute and 30s later bc they can’t use apple’s bc it’s 2 minutes long. I’ve had it happen a few times.
I mean yea timing curses is part of the idea, most people don’t time it right.
Yea you’d have to recast necro spells sure, idk why you run 120 necro? Revenant? (Apples don’t take those away).
My point is it opens up pvp to be more versatile bc you can choose different times to use apple (or stick with just mortal if you really want), people are still killable bc you can dble mortal or time curses, which some templates like Arden/yshtola are still viable bc they can remove curse when 1. You strangle 2. Timing for the 2nd mortal (hint: they already do this).
You may lack spammable heal blocks but that’s not the point of your template. People are killable without healblocks, we kill people all the time without mortal (we still use mortal obviously when possible). My argument is you shouldn’t have de facto permanent heal blocking 30s-60s apple’s would alleviate some of the problems with mortal.
As for it being gamebrealkng for necro, maybe you’re just not playing the template right? There are other ways than just strangle mindrot corpse skin spamming (I call this the ajani special Bc that’s what he does in duels). Necro has way more versatility than just being a debuff character. Also 55 pts of one skill and karma makes your template useless, idk why 30s apple’s would matter. It might reduce those templates and help you in the long run bc you know you have a 30s window to debuff and kill and don’t have to worry about chiv mages, I think corpse and strangle last about that long (not actually sure on the times). Also what debuffs are you using? Like corpse and mindrot are the only 2 (I don’t ever see you mindrot) that don’t fuck with parablow which is what you said you rely on when dumping.
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Legacy
Posts: 448

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Legacy »

Josh wrote:Right mortaling right after is the counter to 30s apple’s so it means people are still killable, obviously we want that to be possible. I do however also realize people die to mortal a minute and 30s later bc they can’t use apple’s bc it’s 2 minutes long. I’ve had it happen a few times.
I mean yea timing curses is part of the idea, most people don’t time it right.
Yeah, I will usually do explo curse poison/lighting while the team does explo eb + whatever. Having to recast curse constantly becomes a problem when you are outnumbered tho. As for the dying a bit later, I usually manage to live by simply off screening (usually red lined, but still living) if Apple is on cd, or having one of our support guys do remove curse.
Josh wrote:Yea you’d have to recast necro spells sure, idk why you run 120 necro? Revenant? (Apples don’t take those away).
Yeah, basically.

Strangle + Revenant to interupt casts and let me setup dumps (and stop heal bots from being heal bots, among other uses such as revealing stealthers). With apple at 30s (I've already experienced this when they were first implemented), people just apple + Dispel. I don't even have time to do the other stuff like Mind Rot. Blood oath is also nerfed so I can only use that with EO, and basically only to block MA FB spam.
Josh wrote:My point is it opens up pvp to be more versatile bc you can choose different times to use apple (or stick with just mortal if you really want), people are still killable bc you can dble mortal or time curses, which some templates like Arden/yshtola are still viable bc they can remove curse when 1. You strangle 2. Timing for the 2nd mortal (hint: they already do this).
Tbh I use apples all the time, and not just to remove mortal.

If playing vs you guys, I will apple as soon as I see I am the target.
If playing vs CHN and Nwo, I will apple if I get mortalled.
if playing vs Hz, I will apple when cursed or winded, depending on who's on. If a SW guy is on, I try to strangle + revenant + mind rot that dude so he runs out of mana faster and/or can't wind again. Usually this guy is MB.
If trying to rez someone, I will cast rez and apple or prot + rez and try to get it off.

I also apple if I am low life enough that a big spell will kill me if I don't remove the curse. So yeah, plenty of uses to me, and I gotta think about them and their consequences due to the 2min timer.

Indeed they are killable without heal blocks. And indeed blocking heals is not the point of my template. However, being able to constantly heal block is a much more reliable and effective way of killing rather than necro debuffs. Scourge is basically my anti-mage guy.

See, I kill much more people with Rider of Death than with Scourge. I time the mortals, I time the curses, and having that Mortal to stop people from running away with 10% and pot/band because there's a 2min delay instead of 30 secs is a pretty big difference.
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Arden
Posts: 1703

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Arden »

I play 2 diff necros and could are less about apple timers.

On another note you’d be surprised how many people aren’t corpse proof
Josh
Posts: 1314

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Josh »

Well, so strangle ticks at the beginning arent quick enough to disrupt my dispel so the revenant doesnt make sense, however, revenant doesnt matter for this discussion.
Chiv chars (55 pts) already nullify your template, apples won't change much, it just means possibly less chiv mages (i doubt it though).
We're normally outnumbered, sync dumps are the best thing to do when outnumbered, not mortal spam, teleport mortal spam is only a luxury for the guild with numbers (or similar numbers).
You don't need mortal to kill someone, I would contend that mortal is too "reliable," the example is that your entire guild uses mortal mages/archers except maybe you and blackmore (sometimes). There is a reason there are guilds dedicated to mortal spamming (i.e. Loop, NWO, CHN)
I too offscreen, the problem is when teleport mortal spams happen it tends to disrupt the effectiveness of this especially since I dont use automation in pvp.
Also, personally i think if played correctly a necro can be better than a tactics mage (in the field).
I mean I use apples when i need to survive, so yea i use it on winds, curses, mortals, etc. I'm saying lowering the timer is good bc it reduces the effectiveness of mortal. That combined with diminishing return requires being good with timing mortal rather than just spamming.

Look, I can survive in either apple time scenario, it's just a question of what would be the best for balancing the game out. Bc archers/ archermages are a bit too strong right now in field fights in my opinion, creating some more balance is necessary. I dont think this is a perfect solution, nor is it enough, but if they do it it'd be a step in the right direction.

Granted 30s apples arent era accurate. Publish 47 (i think) it was 120s and it was during 2007 which was ML.
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The Silvertiger
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Re: apples/mortal

Post by The Silvertiger »

Heat seeking explo pots are era accurate. I'll trade...
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Vitek-
Posts: 925

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Vitek- »

Tldr if this happens then the swing timer reset on weapon switching also needs fixed.
Discord: Critical#2911
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Mr Straitions
Posts: 652

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Mr Straitions »

Vitek- wrote:Tldr if this happens then the swing timer reset on weapon switching also needs fixed.

You wouldn't know what a weapon swing timer was if it walked up and slapped the Hat of Magi right off your head.
The Silvertiger wrote:If it were about kills and not objectives, then the axis won ww2, by a landslide....
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Tempest
Posts: 2507

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Tempest »

Bama wrote:
Tempest wrote:Please remove steam and make scripting illegal - thanks.
Tempest wrote: All of you who want steam to be gone will be begging for it back before you know it.

Did I include myself in that 2nd quote? No I did not.

Stop.
I T-Bagged Vander's corpse and he came back from the dead and attempted to bite my nutsack.
Arden
Posts: 1703

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Arden »

Only people angaist apple time change is hz and loop.

Interesting
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Bad Religion
Posts: 2597

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Bad Religion »

bump
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Vitek-
Posts: 925

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Vitek- »

mortlol


arden you should be a fucking detective if you aren't already
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Arden
Posts: 1703

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Arden »

Vitek- wrote:
arden you should be a fucking detective if you aren't already
This post is so old...what did i say?
Josh
Posts: 1314

Re: apples/mortal

Post by Josh »

Arden wrote:
Vitek- wrote:
arden you should be a fucking detective if you aren't already
This post is so old...what did i say?
Basically you’re generic “you’re shit that’s why you don’t want the change” I think lol but I did the same I think
devo 6
Posts: 29

Re: apples/mortal

Post by devo 6 »

Too bad they can't just eliminate all spells, bandaids and specials from macros. Just back to hot keys for everything.
I think the most fun time was just before steam showed up.

They could keep recall, SJ and gate usable and that wouldn't mess up people in tram with their scripts.
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