We need a new Demise.

[Vander Nars]

1. Osi casting is not a bug, its just how their casting function. Osi casting only on Ocllo will not work, players that enjoy abusing demise casting will refuse to go there and pvp, its fine for maybe testing purposes but the whole shard(fel side atleast) needs to have its casting slowed down.

2. I played OSI for years, no one was using tamer only pets in pvp without taming. What ever those "minor" hindrance were, it was enough to curb this behavior that runs rampant on demise. Teleport Special is an issue because of how fast demise casting is, if it was slowed down no one would complain about teleport specials.

[Amish Hammer]

Can we atleast get a upgrade to the treasure chests and loot system? The treasure chest feature would give players more stuff to do, would make it more interesting, especially if the ones in Fel were better, would make the risk more worth it. And the loot system would be nice if it got a upgrade, from what ive noticed over the last couple of years, everyone relies on runic crafted items, the only thing people farm for mob wise is gold and jewelry. I feel like if the loot got an upgrade, it would make it so people rely less on runic items and would make them more interested on farming for their loot. It would bring the prices of runics down, and slow down the constant bod farming and hw scripting. It would just help bring slight balance to everything in this over priced economy.

[Bad Religion]

Casting

It is understandable that the lack of official responses to the casting discussion may seem like disinterest or dismissal. However, the casting problems are the topic of internal staff discussion almost on a weekly basis. The issue is problematic for a few reasons:

• We strive for OSI accuracy, specifically OSI during ML, for the general mechanics of the server, including PvP. OSI's casting model is theoretically what's implemented on Demise, e.g. 6 FCR should mean no recovery delay between spells and spells should have a fixed casting delay. In practice, however, OSI differs from this casting model because of differences in their timing system (having larger tick times resulting in added "randomness") and overcasting resulting in spells that stop casting without any notice halfway. These mechanics could be, and have been up to now, considered buggy behavior because they contradict/corrupt their theoretical model explained in their official documentation. In general, we do not copy OSI behavior if it's considered a bug. This is why, for example, we don't have server line item duping.
• The point can be made that even if OSI casting is considered the result of bugs, the rest of the OSI mechanics we do follow were all implemented in an environment with OSI casting and may be considered imbalanced without it.
• In contrast, we've often heard the RunUO casting system be praised for its consistency and reliability by players that have previously played OSI. (Though, since the release of UOSteam, which takes advantage of every millisecond the server allows, not so much anymore.)

Our "OSI casting" option on the dueling pits was modeled after behavior we observed on OSI, including the cast delay randomness and overcasting silent fizzle. We have considered implementing this system on a larger scale (either shard-wide or in Felucca), but for now the option remains there as an opt-in for anyone who wants it for dueling purposes. It is also there for evaluation purposes, to give players who may not have played OSI an idea of what OSI casting is like (contrary to widespread belief it's not simply a capped FCR).

The idea of expanding this opt-in evaluation to the island of Ocllo is an interesting idea that we may also consider as an alternative to doing Felucca all at once.

If our "OSI casting" dueling option seems invalid or not OSI-like, now would be the time to express why (along with OSI testing validating these claims), before we end up implementing it on a wider scale and causing half the mage population to retire because their casting is too slow. Our testing results so far confirm the mechanics implemented by the dueling option.


Cu sidhes, teleport specials

Not to go off topic too much, as casting seems to be the main focus of this thread, I'd like to touch upon these subjects briefly.

On OSI, it is possible to soulstone your animal taming and lore skills and still be able to ride a cu sidhe. If you last gave it a follow order, it will continue to follow you. Though, there are minor hindrances on OSI like the stable resetting the last given order and not filling up pet happiness. Aside from these minor hindrances, riding a cu sidhe without skill is accurate behavior. We have considered implementing the OSI hindrances, but know that these will not remove the core issue.

Performing a weapon special immediately after teleporting is also OSI accurate behavior. There is no delay after teleporting for weapon swings.

Striving for OSI accuracy and balance also includes maintaining these mechanics.


To bug or not to bug

Most of the game mechanics discussions come down to what is considered an OSI bug and what isn't, because otherwise OSI is the absolute deciding factor without question (which makes things easy for us). While we consider OSI casting to be a bug (reasons outlined above) and riding cu sidhes to be intentional (no taming means no control chance, which is what happens), other people may disagree and are free/encouraged to argue this consideration. At the end of the day, we make a decision based on many factors, not just the loudest or most repeated opinion, and we hope the discussion can continue in a civil manner.


Tl;dr

We read your posts.

Perfect, thank you.

I'll let others break down the small issues with Demise's version of osi casting except that it maybe a hair too slow at the moment for some spells. I would just like to add on the cu subject that those specific hindrances do aid in dissuading of people riding a cu for various reasons and, as minor as they sound, shouldnt be overlooked.

Also, you forgot the mortal timer

[Bad Religion]

Can we atleast get a upgrade to the treasure chests and loot system? The treasure chest feature would give players more stuff to do, would make it more interesting, especially if the ones in Fel were better, would make the risk more worth it. And the loot system would be nice if it got a upgrade, from what ive noticed over the last couple of years, everyone relies on runic crafted items, the only thing people farm for mob wise is gold and jewelry. I feel like if the loot got an upgrade, it would make it so people rely less on runic items and would make them more interested on farming for their loot. It would bring the prices of runics down, and slow down the constant bod farming and hw scripting. It would just help bring slight balance to everything in this over priced economy.

stop trolling please

[jaasso]

strongly disagree with changing mechanics based on location, only serves to confuse people and just feels contrived and weird, you decide what works best and use that everywhere if you ask me

[Bama]

Casting

It is understandable that the lack of official responses to the casting discussion may seem like disinterest or dismissal. However, the casting problems are the topic of internal staff discussion almost on a weekly basis. The issue is problematic for a few reasons:

• We strive for OSI accuracy, specifically OSI during ML, for the general mechanics of the server, including PvP. OSI's casting model is theoretically what's implemented on Demise, e.g. 6 FCR should mean no recovery delay between spells and spells should have a fixed casting delay. In practice, however, OSI differs from this casting model because of differences in their timing system (having larger tick times resulting in added "randomness") and overcasting resulting in spells that stop casting without any notice halfway. These mechanics could be, and have been up to now, considered buggy behavior because they contradict/corrupt their theoretical model explained in their official documentation. In general, we do not copy OSI behavior if it's considered a bug. This is why, for example, we don't have server line item duping.
• The point can be made that even if OSI casting is considered the result of bugs, the rest of the OSI mechanics we do follow were all implemented in an environment with OSI casting and may be considered imbalanced without it.
• In contrast, we've often heard the RunUO casting system be praised for its consistency and reliability by players that have previously played OSI. (Though, since the release of UOSteam, which takes advantage of every millisecond the server allows, not so much anymore.)

Our "OSI casting" option on the dueling pits was modeled after behavior we observed on OSI, including the cast delay randomness and overcasting silent fizzle. We have considered implementing this system on a larger scale (either shard-wide or in Felucca), but for now the option remains there as an opt-in for anyone who wants it for dueling purposes. It is also there for evaluation purposes, to give players who may not have played OSI an idea of what OSI casting is like (contrary to widespread belief it's not simply a capped FCR).

The idea of expanding this opt-in evaluation to the island of Ocllo is an interesting idea that we may also consider as an alternative to doing Felucca all at once.

If our "OSI casting" dueling option seems invalid or not OSI-like, now would be the time to express why (along with OSI testing validating these claims), before we end up implementing it on a wider scale and causing half the mage population to retire because their casting is too slow. Our testing results so far confirm the mechanics implemented by the dueling option.


Cu sidhes, teleport specials

Not to go off topic too much, as casting seems to be the main focus of this thread, I'd like to touch upon these subjects briefly.

On OSI, it is possible to soulstone your animal taming and lore skills and still be able to ride a cu sidhe. If you last gave it a follow order, it will continue to follow you. Though, there are minor hindrances on OSI like the stable resetting the last given order and not filling up pet happiness. Aside from these minor hindrances, riding a cu sidhe without skill is accurate behavior. We have considered implementing the OSI hindrances, but know that these will not remove the core issue.

Performing a weapon special immediately after teleporting is also OSI accurate behavior. There is no delay after teleporting for weapon swings.

Striving for OSI accuracy and balance also includes maintaining these mechanics.


To bug or not to bug

Most of the game mechanics discussions come down to what is considered an OSI bug and what isn't, because otherwise OSI is the absolute deciding factor without question (which makes things easy for us). While we consider OSI casting to be a bug (reasons outlined above) and riding cu sidhes to be intentional (no taming means no control chance, which is what happens), other people may disagree and are free/encouraged to argue this consideration. At the end of the day, we make a decision based on many factors, not just the loudest or most repeated opinion, and we hope the discussion can continue in a civil manner.


Tl;dr

We read your posts.

Hindrances?
Is that what we are calling them now?
Cool
You might want to read a few threads in the bug section that may require you to call it a hindrance and consider the thread closed and the bug "handled"

Glittering prizes
And endless compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity

Hindrance?

[Amish Hammer]

Can we atleast get a upgrade to the treasure chests and loot system? The treasure chest feature would give players more stuff to do, would make it more interesting, especially if the ones in Fel were better, would make the risk more worth it. And the loot system would be nice if it got a upgrade, from what ive noticed over the last couple of years, everyone relies on runic crafted items, the only thing people farm for mob wise is gold and jewelry. I feel like if the loot got an upgrade, it would make it so people rely less on runic items and would make them more interested on farming for their loot. It would bring the prices of runics down, and slow down the constant bod farming and hw scripting. It would just help bring slight balance to everything in this over priced economy.

stop trolling please

Not trolling, just giving my input as a fellow player who doesnt care about pvp. Also as someone who actually works for their money and doesnt script all their shit. There are people that play that arent pvpers, we would like some content aswell.

[The Silvertiger]

Can we atleast get a upgrade to the treasure chests and loot system? The treasure chest feature would give players more stuff to do, would make it more interesting, especially if the ones in Fel were better, would make the risk more worth it. And the loot system would be nice if it got a upgrade, from what ive noticed over the last couple of years, everyone relies on runic crafted items, the only thing people farm for mob wise is gold and jewelry. I feel like if the loot got an upgrade, it would make it so people rely less on runic items and would make them more interested on farming for their loot. It would bring the prices of runics down, and slow down the constant bod farming and hw scripting. It would just help bring slight balance to everything in this over priced economy.

stop trolling please

He is serious. And from a stale content point of view, his request for an upgraded treasure map system is reasonable. I am against a loot bump for mobs, however. As the current economic mechanics of Demise exist [faucet metaphor incoming] we have a wide-open faucet with a mostly closed sink causing gold values to overflow[thanks staff for the recent sink.] This may also be a reason not to add the new treasure chest system, as they have copious amounts of gold per chest. However, if it's based on the enjoyment of the game, I don't see why people just don't do it anyway. As you saw today, you can make gold in so many different ways in this game it's ridiculous. I'm not a fan of this idea that we should farm the most efficient way. I'm frankly surprised that Amish doesn't just do the treasure chests anyways.

TL;DR It's not a troll.

[Bama]

Can we atleast get a upgrade to the treasure chests and loot system? The treasure chest feature would give players more stuff to do, would make it more interesting, especially if the ones in Fel were better, would make the risk more worth it. And the loot system would be nice if it got a upgrade, from what ive noticed over the last couple of years, everyone relies on runic crafted items, the only thing people farm for mob wise is gold and jewelry. I feel like if the loot got an upgrade, it would make it so people rely less on runic items and would make them more interested on farming for their loot. It would bring the prices of runics down, and slow down the constant bod farming and hw scripting. It would just help bring slight balance to everything in this over priced economy.

stop trolling please

Not trolling, just giving my input as a fellow player who doesnt care about pvp. Also as someone who actually works for their money and doesnt script all their shit. There are people that play that arent pvpers, we would like some content aswell.

If Eos would reconsider hindrances it would be a whole new game for you and everyone else

[Vander Nars]

"While we consider OSI casting to be a bug (reasons outlined above) and riding cu sidhes to be intentional (no taming means no control chance, which is what happens)"

How the fuck can you come to the conclusion that riding cu sidhes without taming is intentional when ZERO people on osi did this? Did you even play osi? and who are you getting information from cause you're misinformed on alot of things.

[Arden]

@eos

I’ve played osi for as long as most. And pvped for nearly all of it. For most of it I also dueled and pvped against and with the best players to play the game.

So from experience and just sheer amount of personal research. I really have to ask, where is your osi information coming from?

I appreciate the long explaonation.

As for your questions about Demise “osi casting” in duel pits is much better but off in many ways.

1) spells fly too fast
2) on osi over casting doesn’t instantly happen,
There is a small delay before you can over cast. On Demise you can overcast before you spell “cooks”
3) the recovery time is much slower than osi after an interrupt
4) poison ticks feel wrong
5) FS dmg comes too fast
6) mb timing is off
7) arch cure feels slow

Please help me believe that people like mb aren’t our “pvp staff” bc he is clueless.

Ps -
Your post is all I’ve been looking for...
Acknowledging that you’re reading. I’ll continue to play bc of that. But my offer to delete all my accs and cut all ties to run Demise pvp balancing is still out there!

[Anonymous Group]

i agree we need a new demise this demise is too much of whiny bitch babies

[Shake]

Eos the opinion of Demise casting being broken is only coming from a small group maybe 4-5 individuals that recently came to this server from OSI and does not reflect the opinion of the rest of the server.

[The Silvertiger]

When Eos refers to "theoretical model explained in their official documentation", I believe it is in reference to Publish notes and FoF answers. Correct me if I'm wrong, Eos.

[Arden]

Eos the opinion of Demise casting being broken is only coming from a small group maybe 4-5 individuals that recently came to this server from OSI and does not reflect the opinion of the rest of the server.

I find this not true. Barcode asked for osi casting. So did Anthony file and even morto. All of which have been here much longer than myself (well morto and i got here around the same time)

I’ve seen most of kvg, many of the 1410 guys, and even China. If you played more than 10mins at a time and stopped running non stop to talk to people you’d know that.

You’re experience is with msby and nwo. Both groups exploit the hell out of steam/Demise casting. Shit man ask Jeff he prob supports it.

The only person in pvp that I’ve seen post against it is AJani (be he admits he can’t pcp without it) and you. Why are you against it?