Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

General discussion pertaining to the Demise shard. Off-topic posts will be moderated.
Arden
Posts: 1703

Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Arden »

So thoughts on these changes ?

1) osi casting
2) mortal DR - first hit full duration, 2nd hur refreshes duration but only by half time, 3rd 25% etc, DR is on player so that multi archers don’t break it. Also this is technically a small buff to mortal as currently it doesn’t refresh on new hit (i don’t think) - max mortal time would be 1min + 30sec + 15 sec + 7.5 + 3.75 + 1.875= ~2mins
3) reduce apple cd to 1min (45 sec would also be an option but feels too quick.) will allow chiv to gain value. Apple removes DR on mortal- you can remortal
4) remove ability to ride pet without taking skill - should drive archers to ride non cus- (swampie) smart archers will move to ninja adding variety as well as reducing dmg.


Yes it’s a lot at once but my thought Is reducing casting is a baseline buff to archers, so you need to tone down archers in the same move. Also you want template variety and this will bring chiv and ninja back into the fold for both mages and dex.

Some of the best osi templates around this time aren’t even played now bc of the overpowered nature of the casting and the archers



Any posts not pertaining to discussing this or attempting to troll will be reported. Even if you don’t pvp it’s ok to weight in just make it specific. Staff please help manage this. The other thread has become pointless to attempt to discusS. Eos I will move your post here too.
Arden
Posts: 1703

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Arden »

Eos wrote:Casting

It is understandable that the lack of official responses to the casting discussion may seem like disinterest or dismissal. However, the casting problems are the topic of internal staff discussion almost on a weekly basis. The issue is problematic for a few reasons:
  • We strive for OSI accuracy, specifically OSI during ML, for the general mechanics of the server, including PvP. OSI's casting model is theoretically what's implemented on Demise, e.g. 6 FCR should mean no recovery delay between spells and spells should have a fixed casting delay. In practice, however, OSI differs from this casting model because of differences in their timing system (having larger tick times resulting in added "randomness") and overcasting resulting in spells that stop casting without any notice halfway. These mechanics could be, and have been up to now, considered buggy behavior because they contradict/corrupt their theoretical model explained in their official documentation. In general, we do not copy OSI behavior if it's considered a bug. This is why, for example, we don't have server line item duping.
  • The point can be made that even if OSI casting is considered the result of bugs, the rest of the OSI mechanics we do follow were all implemented in an environment with OSI casting and may be considered imbalanced without it.
  • In contrast, we've often heard the RunUO casting system be praised for its consistency and reliability by players that have previously played OSI. (Though, since the release of UOSteam, which takes advantage of every millisecond the server allows, not so much anymore.)
Our "OSI casting" option on the dueling pits was modeled after behavior we observed on OSI, including the cast delay randomness and overcasting silent fizzle. We have considered implementing this system on a larger scale (either shard-wide or in Felucca), but for now the option remains there as an opt-in for anyone who wants it for dueling purposes. It is also there for evaluation purposes, to give players who may not have played OSI an idea of what OSI casting is like (contrary to widespread belief it's not simply a capped FCR).

The idea of expanding this opt-in evaluation to the island of Ocllo is an interesting idea that we may also consider as an alternative to doing Felucca all at once.

If our "OSI casting" dueling option seems invalid or not OSI-like, now would be the time to express why (along with OSI testing validating these claims), before we end up implementing it on a wider scale and causing half the mage population to retire because their casting is too slow. Our testing results so far confirm the mechanics implemented by the dueling option.


Cu sidhes, teleport specials

Not to go off topic too much, as casting seems to be the main focus of this thread, I'd like to touch upon these subjects briefly.

On OSI, it is possible to soulstone your animal taming and lore skills and still be able to ride a cu sidhe. If you last gave it a follow order, it will continue to follow you. Though, there are minor hindrances on OSI like the stable resetting the last given order and not filling up pet happiness. Aside from these minor hindrances, riding a cu sidhe without skill is accurate behavior. We have considered implementing the OSI hindrances, but know that these will not remove the core issue.

Performing a weapon special immediately after teleporting is also OSI accurate behavior. There is no delay after teleporting for weapon swings.

Striving for OSI accuracy and balance also includes maintaining these mechanics.


To bug or not to bug

Most of the game mechanics discussions come down to what is considered an OSI bug and what isn't, because otherwise OSI is the absolute deciding factor without question (which makes things easy for us). While we consider OSI casting to be a bug (reasons outlined above) and riding cu sidhes to be intentional (no taming means no control chance, which is what happens), other people may disagree and are free/encouraged to argue this consideration. At the end of the day, we make a decision based on many factors, not just the loudest or most repeated opinion, and we hope the discussion can continue in a civil manner.


Tl;dr

We read your posts.
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Bad Religion
Posts: 2597

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Bad Religion »

I'd rather see the same delay that para blow has between mortals. Agree that apple or RC should remove that cooldown.
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desalonne
Posts: 439

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by desalonne »

I feel these changes would also bring back viability to melee dexxers thus also bringing variety in pvp styles.
Josh
Posts: 1314

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Josh »

I think these 3 changes will balance out alchy archers (making them more vulnerable), make ninja archers more meta so that's less damage and healing which is the hardest parts about the alchy archer. Morto says he kills people without alchy on his archer so it is possible to be successful without alchy/conflags. Also, I think osi casting will nerf mages so teleport spamming, miniheal spam, etc won't matter as much. Also it'll give melee dexxers a viable strategy to kill mages because they already beat up archers bc they can disarm. I think it balances out the three types of templates well in field fights.
Last edited by Josh on February 4th, 2019, 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Silvertiger
Posts: 4469

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by The Silvertiger »

Arden wrote:So thoughts on these changes ?

1) Overall a great addition if properly balanced. Would prefer steam being removed too.
2) probably my favorite proposal
3) only proper balance to go with DR
4) Should say fix pets. I agree. I want to bake form smack you in the face with my three tails.
5) add the stealables I posted in the bug forum. They are era accurate.
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devo 6
Posts: 29

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by devo 6 »

The Silvertiger wrote:
Arden wrote:So thoughts on these changes ?

1) Overall a great addition if properly balanced. Would prefer steam being removed too.
2) probably my favorite proposal
3) only proper balance to go with DR
4) Should say fix pets. I agree. I want to bake form smack you in the face with my three tails.
5) add the stealables I posted in the bug forum. They are era accurate.
Agree or at the least make no spells (except recall/gate), band aids, pots or specials scriptable

1 button 1 spell

Dunno if that's possible though
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The Silvertiger
Posts: 4469

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by The Silvertiger »

devo 6 wrote:
The Silvertiger wrote:
Arden wrote:So thoughts on these changes ?

1) Overall a great addition if properly balanced. Would prefer steam being removed too.
2) probably my favorite proposal
3) only proper balance to go with DR
4) Should say fix pets. I agree. I want to bake form smack you in the face with my three tails.
5) add the stealables I posted in the bug forum. They are era accurate.
Agree or at the least make no spells (except recall/gate), band aids, pots or specials scriptable

1 button 1 spell

Dunno if that's possible though
I agree.
Negotiate features:
cast function removed from scripts
miniheal/big heal/chiv heal function removed from scripts and hotkeys
replygump [whichever gump is runebooks and atlas's] removed from scripts
hits, poisoned, yellowhits, and stam functions removed from scripts

What does this do? Makes pvp, pvm, and crafting less automated. Still allows for bolas, targeting, basic crafting macros[removes endless resources for hw without attendance and recalls for fully automated bod filling such as for turn-ins,] and makes pvm almost completely unautomated. And of course the rules are EUO can only do what UOS can, so they would have to monitor that or make EUO illegal again[my preference.]

Next, they need to figure out how to crack down on illegal programs such as stealth client, enhanced razor, and Orion client.
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TheUnknown0617
Posts: 1985

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by TheUnknown0617 »

i do agree with this, I think archers are probably the biggest reason people are against casting because if you slow down mages, archers will be even more OP lol balancing it in this way would be great. I do miss the razor days, i still dont use many scripts besides the heal that chugs pots and shit too. Back in the day, the only script i had on razor was MA/FB lol
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Arden
Posts: 1703

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Arden »

Bad Religion wrote:I'd rather see the same delay that para blow has between mortals. Agree that apple or RC should remove that cooldown.

My issue with having mortal work like stun, would mean you pretty much go mortal “ immune” I don’t like that. Possibly go immune for stun timer after 2-3 in a row would be a better option.

The other option on this whole thing is nerf archers downs a bit first. Do the cu change, the mortal, and Apple change. Leave casting for a few months and see how the landscape looks.

Turn test center back on and give players incentive to play on test. Maybe one charge Tokuno dyes (the good colors) for every so many kills. You could link it to justice gain so that you can’t just Rez kill someone. A lot to code but without incentive there may only be a few people on test
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The Silvertiger
Posts: 4469

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by The Silvertiger »

There are quite a few OSI accurate archer nerfs that can be put in place or may already be in place. Most are something along the lines of 50% reduction for ranged attacks. These can be found skimming through publishes and probably aren't hard to code.

Demise hides their code which is sad. Sure the custom event's and pvp event code should be hidden but the basic code should be open source. Without having the full code it is difficult to write and test code because you don't know what conflicts may arise when scripts are compiling. I would gladly host a TC for Demise if Demise accurate code was in place.
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Loler
Posts: 2485

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Loler »

Josh wrote:I think these 3 changes will balance out alchy archers (making them more vulnerable), make ninja archers more meta so that's less damage and healing which is the hardest parts about the alchy archer. Morto says he kills people without alchy on his archer so it is possible to be successful without mortal. Also, I think osi casting will nerf mages so teleport spamming, miniheal spam, etc won't matter as much. Also it'll give melee dexxers a viable strategy to kill mages because they already beat up archers bc they can disarm. I think it balances out the three types of templates well in field fights.
I don't understand how you compare alchemy and mortal its 2 different mechanics.
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The Silvertiger
Posts: 4469

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by The Silvertiger »

Loler wrote:
Josh wrote:I think these 3 changes will balance out alchy archers (making them more vulnerable), make ninja archers more meta so that's less damage and healing which is the hardest parts about the alchy archer. Morto says he kills people without alchy on his archer so it is possible to be successful without mortal. Also, I think osi casting will nerf mages so teleport spamming, miniheal spam, etc won't matter as much. Also it'll give melee dexxers a viable strategy to kill mages because they already beat up archers bc they can disarm. I think it balances out the three types of templates well in field fights.
I don't understand how you compare alchemy and mortal its 2 different mechanics.
I don't think it's a comparison.
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Josh
Posts: 1314

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Josh »

Loler wrote:
Josh wrote:I think these 3 changes will balance out alchy archers (making them more vulnerable), make ninja archers more meta so that's less damage and healing which is the hardest parts about the alchy archer. Morto says he kills people without alchy on his archer so it is possible to be successful without mortal. Also, I think osi casting will nerf mages so teleport spamming, miniheal spam, etc won't matter as much. Also it'll give melee dexxers a viable strategy to kill mages because they already beat up archers bc they can disarm. I think it balances out the three types of templates well in field fights.
I don't understand how you compare alchemy and mortal its 2 different mechanics.
I mistyped oops. Meant to say conflags. Corrected.
Loler
Posts: 2485

Re: Proposed pvp changes please discuss pros and cons

Post by Loler »

All good just had me wondering how they gI together if u ment conflag instead of mortal. Got to remember though i can spam specs if i lose cus and they fix mana leech on bows and i give up med for ninja I won't have the same ability.
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