Question on rules

General discussion pertaining to the Demise shard. Off-topic posts will be moderated.
Siemo
Posts: 31

Question on rules

Post by Siemo »

So, I was bored last night because taming grows so slow, and was taming cus and Hiryus. I release them afterwards so I told myself, well, why not releasing them while doing a little service to demise. So I went and released them in Wisp Dungeon. And they killed a bunch of bots.

I gotta say, only SOME of the bots were afk. Some angry scripters were calling me noob while taking other of their characters there to kill the released beasts. I did this several times because, as I said, I'm training taming and doing so, releasing many beasts. The last time I did it was at about 3:00 last night (it's 12:34 noow here, I'm too lazy to calc for server time).

I actually checked the dungeon at 4:00 before going to bed. There were no bots since the last time I released, so they were clearly afk. They had already gone to bed and pretended to afk farm wisp dungeon all night. Well, not tonight.

This morning I found myself in jail. I found out it was a warning, 'cause with a simple phrase I was out. Again, The last time I released and the released pet actually killed anyone, was at 3:00. And by 4:00 nothing had happened.

So, this is bullshit. The afk scripters page the admins and I'm the one jailed? I understand that scripting IS allowed, but AFK farming is NOT. Yet they are protected by the staff of Demise? I'm good with them doing nothing about it. But actually protecting them? What a bunch of little bitches.

So, about the rules, I have some questions. First being, why are Ilshnar, Malas and Tokuno under Trammel ruleset? Is this a server for noobs, or is there like historical events that justify this decision?

I read the rules. It says no release killing in trammel. Doing so will result in kill counts. So, I guess my warning was "next time you'll get kill counts) (In wich case I'll be back every night just so you can't afk farm all night in wisp dungeon and welcome the kill counts, not just until I finish the taming training but vrtually forever). Or will the punishment actually include jail time? I'm confused because the rules say no release killing in Trammel, not no release killing under trammel ruleset, so I believe this rule shouldn't count for Ilshenar, Tokuno and Malas.

I'm thinking the "only felucca has fel ruleset" instead of "only trammel has trammel" ruleset is utter bullshit made only to protect the already billionare scripters.


Lastly, I'm new to this server. I've known of demise for years, and this is the first time I tried it out because it's the only free shard with decent ping where I'm from (chile) and with an actual player base. I'm really disappointed that after reading the rules and after getting to read the forums and talk with some people, the only way I can see myself geared out in a reasonable ammount of time for pvp is if I, like 99% of the rest of this server, break the rules.

¿why do the rules say no afk farming if the admins are not willing to enforce this? This seems like a noobie trap to me. First, you tell the newbies (by reading forum rules) that afk farming is not allowed. Then, only after the newb hast put a lot of effort into getting geared up will he realize (only maybe) that everything is so expensive because so much gold is being produced daily, and that the only way to keep up is to break the rules via HW quests of Wisp dungeon farming following the specific instructions to not be punished by staff (just respond in time when confronted by staff, so script an alarm) . So, am I supposed to follow the rules? Or break them? How can you not see that you are FORCING half the server to break the rules just to keep up? How can't you see how corrupted and fucked up is that?
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Skrillex
Posts: 1045
Location: Spain

Re: Question on rules

Post by Skrillex »

i want to know why poisoning weaps / pots are not avaiable on pvp tournaments, i not play mages, its literally impossible kill a mage without poison/pots, i think is unfair bc a mage can poison you with a simple spell.
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The Boy Who Shattered Time
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Eos
Demise Administrator
Posts: 352

Re: Question on rules

Post by Eos »

Both unattended gathering and releasing pets to kill other players in Trammel ruleset facets are policed by staff. The latter is why you found yourself in jail.

To avoid breaking any rules, the best course of action is to let us know if you suspect an unattended gatherer is around. Of course, we do random checks all the time, so eventually they will be caught even if no one pages. It is better when they get caught by us, as we will delete any obtained resources and jail/ban the accounts for longer periods of time.

(And you are right in assuming that repeated pet releasing offenses not only mean kill counts, but also jail time.)
Eos
UOGDemise - Administrator

Please do not PM me for general support.
If you are experiencing game issues please send a help request in-game.

Thank you for your continued support of UOG: Demise.
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Siemo
Posts: 31

Re: Question on rules

Post by Siemo »

Eos wrote:Both unattended gathering and releasing pets to kill other players in Trammel ruleset facets are policed by staff. The latter is why you found yourself in jail.

To avoid breaking any rules, the best course of action is to let us know if you suspect an unattended gatherer is around. Of course, we do random checks all the time, so eventually they will be caught even if no one pages. It is better when they get caught by us, as we will delete any obtained resources and jail/ban the accounts for longer periods of time.

(And you are right in assuming that repeated pet releasing offenses not only mean kill counts, but also jail time.)
Yay.

So, I don't mean to be too aggresive bout this, and thanks for the quick answer. I wonder though, why do YOU think, with your experience as staff, is the reason the longer periods of time, deletion of resources and jail times are not discouraging people from unattendedly gathering and questing, to the point that this is even enforced by what I perceive to be a big part of the playerbase?
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Chacal
Posts: 233

Re: Question on rules

Post by Chacal »

Oh God, this topic is so, so tricky.

First of all, I feel some kind of upset all the time people disrespect and devalues the work of our staff. Every single time I see people doing this, it seems to me that they completely forgot this is a FREE shard and this as an OLD game. Really, you can't pretend those facts simply don't exists, because they do have an influencing role in the scenario. Isn't very reasonable requeire and expect a tidy orderly shard with no issues in the situation we happen to be. Mostly, is already surprising to have such staff keeping things how they are instead of simply shut down the shard. As you said, demise seems to be one of the better ideais for someone trying Ultima in the middle of 2017, and guess what, probably demise is one of the best things you still can find about an elder game like this. So, with all respect, try to chill out a little, buddy.

Second, how can you be so sure you are not releasing a pet in a scripter that is actually in front of his computer? The first time you released your angry pets you said people came with other chars to kill the thing in them scripter characters feet. So, they were actually afk? They were somehow away but still watchful about them characters? If we assume that only a single one of them was watching the script, well my friend, you were an asshole, cause sometimes a character killing wisps can't deal with a cu sidhe. So, he was there to kill something he could deal and you came to simply force him to the graveyard. Yeah, the fact is: probably a bunch of afks, but you simply can't prove that they way you did. See how tricky this shit is? This is the time you should remember a staff that offers you a free shard, with nothing in return, having to deal with this headache. So, if you really feel good about scripts, you shouldn't be so upset. But, if you really want bo annyoed with the situation you better stick with the ideia of no scripts to keep an argument that does not conflict with itself. You simply can't avoid this kind of thing having those scripts, one thing come with another. I don't think staff is able to punishing with surgical precision those that disobey the rules in the scenario we have here, leading to the ideia that I might agree with something of your final thoughts, although having reservations about how you think the hole thing, and the way you actully act.

Obs.: this gets more trickiest if you conclude that scripts are bad and have to be gone, 'cause half of the players that keep demise alive will leave. So, maybe a decision that leads to shoot in demise's own foot? Hmmmm :coffee:
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Siemo
Posts: 31

Re: Question on rules

Post by Siemo »

Chacal wrote:Oh God, this topic is so, so tricky.

First of all, I feel some kind of upset all the time people disrespect and devalues the work of our staff. Every single time I see people doing this, it seems to me that they completely forgot this is a FREE shard and this as an OLD game. Really, you can't pretend those facts simply don't exists, because they do have an influencing role in the scenario. Isn't very reasonable requeire and expect a tidy orderly shard with no issues in the situation we happen to be. Mostly, is already surprising to have such staff keeping things how they are instead of simply shut down the shard. As you said, demise seems to be one of the better ideais for someone trying Ultima in the middle of 2017, and guess what, probably demise is one of the best things you still can find about an elder game like this. So, with all respect, try to chill out a little, buddy.

Second, how can you be so sure you are not releasing a pet in a scripter that is actually in front of his computer? The first time you released your angry pets you said people came with other chars to kill the thing in them scripter characters feet. So, they were actually afk? They were somehow away but still watchful about them characters? If we assume that only a single one of them was watching the script, well my friend, you were an asshole, cause sometimes a character killing wisps can't deal with a cu sidhe. So, he was there to kill something he could deal and you came to simply force him to the graveyard. Yeah, the fact is: probably a bunch of afks, but you simply can't prove that they way you did. See how tricky this shit is? This is the time you should remember a staff that offers you a free shard, with nothing in return, having to deal with this headache. So, if you really feel good about scripts, you shouldn't be so upset. But, if you really want bo annyoed with the situation you better stick with the ideia of no scripts to keep an argument that does not conflict with itself. You simply can't avoid this kind of thing having those scripts, one thing come with another. I don't think staff is able to punishing with surgical precision those that disobey the rules in the scenario we have here, leading to the ideia that I might agree with your final thoughts, although having reservations about how you think the hole thing, and the way you actully act.

Obs.: this gets more trickiest if you conclude that scripts are bad and have to be gone, 'cause half of the players that keep demise alive will leave. So, maybe a decision that leads to shoot in demise's own foot? Hmmmm :coffee:
Yeah, my first post was flamey because I was mad. I won't edit it.

But if you notice by my second post here, I'm already chill, so there's no need to, buddy.

I know it's free, I said so.

I also know some of them were not AFK in that precise momment, wich does not mean they were not there on keyboard setting their scripts for the rest of the night, and thought that they only had to stay up late, until they realized thay had to wait too much, so they paged the admins instead and stoped trying. So if you wanna call me an asshole, why not doing so directly?

I have read the forums. So I'm informed some old forums existed and for some reason they can't be accessed so not al info is up here. I've read some answers of staff to other topics similar to this. I didn't really ever read other than here that they were consistently punishing those afk scripting and doing random inspections. As my second post here points, If they really do this, it seems to have no effect.
Chacal wrote: I don't think staff is able to punishing with surgical precision those that disobey the rules in the scenario we have here, leading to the ideia that I might agree with your final thoughts, although having reservations about how you think the hole thing
Regarding this "having no effect", I think the first part of this observation is minimizing the issue. But yeah, I do think comming clean with the fact that most people that do enjoy UO have some degree of knowledge of coding and automation and demise might be popular because of it and simply allowing in the rules the automated gathering of resources might be better simply because I feel a little tricked, because I did actually read the rules before investing my time in this shard, and things were not in practice what the rules said. Despite the staff's efforts, the no resource gathering while afk is a rule that either is not being enforced propperly, there is not enough care for it to be enforced, or is just impossible to be enforced by the current circumstances, thus making the actual game a very different one than the one we can guess by reading the rules.

It's a completely different game.

I'm lazy about scripting right now. I don't like to use other people's scripts, though I do use them to start writing mine, but I often find them buggy or think they could have been written better. So for me, now knowing I'm pretty much forced to script the resource gathering and the quest making of do hell knowshow many Gauntlet loops because these are the only ways I can catch up to this overinflated fucked up economy. Because ltots aren't also here. And to champ I need to defend it from a zerg raid every 5 minutes, wich is incredibly hard for someone playing solo that's just starting. And PSs are worth shit here too because of the fucked up economy. Any normal server a 120 Magery is worth the same as an orny. Here, it's 1/3, nearly 1/4. All these are symptoms of the overinflated economy because of the ridiculous ammount of gold being generated daily. So yeah, different game.

I don't wanna rage about this, though. I just wanna know, what does the staff think about this whole situation, other than "we're making random inspections, jailing and erasing unlawful things", what does the staff think about how effective these measures have been.
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zulu2401
Posts: 2009

Re: Question on rules

Post by zulu2401 »

Eos wrote:Both unattended gathering and releasing pets to kill other players in Trammel ruleset facets are policed by staff. The latter is why you found yourself in jail.

To avoid breaking any rules, the best course of action is to let us know if you suspect an unattended gatherer is around. Of course, we do random checks all the time, so eventually they will be caught even if no one pages. It is better when they get caught by us, as we will delete any obtained resources and jail/ban the accounts for longer periods of time.

(And you are right in assuming that repeated pet releasing offenses not only mean kill counts, but also jail time.)
It does you absolutely no good to jail people for things that can't be strictly enforced because they go right back to doing it. I don't even bother paging when I catch someone afk farming in fel. I just kill them and watch on my stealther for 10 people to roll in searching for me. Response times usually around 20-45 mins vs waiting 3 days for a page response. The level of scripting here is ridiculous when it comes to farming. Most of the time I just stand next to the afk samps and they auto target me with their shitty script so I can kill them on a blue or a red.
Afk farmers die in guards zone chopping and mining all day long too. I actually have a script that works baracoon unattended just to give you an idea of how out of control uosteam is. Disabling auto loot did nothing to stop it. They use easyuo auto loot which has been going on for a long ass time now.
I could honestly care less what happens or how it's handled but since the topic is open for discussion I feel freedom to throw some stones.
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royal kapero2
Posts: 1081

Re: Question on rules

Post by royal kapero2 »

I remember killing your miner in front of your tower, he was recalling there and back to stock ores. For how long you havent scripting?
zulu2401
Posts: 2009

Re: Question on rules

Post by zulu2401 »

zulu2401 wrote:I actually have a script that works baracoon unattended just to give you an idea of how out of control uosteam is.
You have anything else super fuckin retarded you want to add kapero?
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Gargl Kark
Posts: 484

Re: Question on rules

Post by Gargl Kark »

two things:
- I appreciate the time and effort you throw into this lengthy reflection about your experiences. I think we all need that more often, it's a quality read <3
- my personal conclusion is that without proper scripting you cannot really excel on this shard. afk-ing is not a matter of black and white but has many shades, so you can stick to the rules and still automate resource gathering. So yes, it is better to observe actual gameplay than to silently interpret the rules correctly :)
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royal kapero2
Posts: 1081

Re: Question on rules

Post by royal kapero2 »

If you were honest, you would ask a GM to put you to jail
zulu2401
Posts: 2009

Re: Question on rules

Post by zulu2401 »

Gargl Kark wrote:two things:
- I appreciate the time and effort you throw into this lengthy reflection about your experiences. I think we all need that more often, it's a quality read <3
- my personal conclusion is that without proper scripting you cannot really excel on this shard. afk-ing is not a matter of black and white but has many shades, so you can stick to the rules and still automate resource gathering. So yes, it is better to observe actual gameplay than to silently interpret the rules correctly :)
Correction. You can do EXACTLY the same thing as the scripts do if you aren't a lazy piece of fuckin shit. I script and everyone scripts. Some of us hate and others would quit the game without it. On one hand it's a nice advantage to have if you aren't retarded and understand how to script but on the other hand its spiralling out of control and ruining many aspects of the game.
zulu2401
Posts: 2009

Re: Question on rules

Post by zulu2401 »

royal kapero2 wrote:If you were honest, you would ask a GM to put you to jail
I don't afk farm kapero and never will because I'm not a fuckin retard. I've broken rules just like everyone else but when i log off so do my bots.
Siemo
Posts: 31

Re: Question on rules

Post by Siemo »

zulu2401 wrote:
Eos wrote:Both unattended gathering and releasing pets to kill other players in Trammel ruleset facets are policed by staff. The latter is why you found yourself in jail.

To avoid breaking any rules, the best course of action is to let us know if you suspect an unattended gatherer is around. Of course, we do random checks all the time, so eventually they will be caught even if no one pages. It is better when they get caught by us, as we will delete any obtained resources and jail/ban the accounts for longer periods of time.

(And you are right in assuming that repeated pet releasing offenses not only mean kill counts, but also jail time.)
It does you absolutely no good to jail people for things that can't be strictly enforced because they go right back to doing it. I don't even bother paging when I catch someone afk farming in fel. I just kill them and watch on my stealther for 10 people to roll in searching for me. Response times usually around 20-45 mins vs waiting 3 days for a page response. The level of scripting here is ridiculous when it comes to farming. Most of the time I just stand next to the afk samps and they auto target me with their shitty script so I can kill them on a blue or a red.
Afk farmers die in guards zone chopping and mining all day long too. I actually have a script that works baracoon unattended just to give you an idea of how out of control uosteam is. Disabling auto loot did nothing to stop it. They use easyuo auto loot which has been going on for a long ass time now.
I could honestly care less what happens or how it's handled but since the topic is open for discussion I feel freedom to throw some stones.
TL;DR, what Gargl Kark said.

I just hope staff could be more honest about it and just enable autoloot (because what it discourages is on keyboard farming, because I have to loot everything manually, and it stinks when you're luck hunting jewelry, for example, because this is not an easy game and that means thousands of iterations) and come clean with the rules about afk gathering with something that actually can be enforced, so it looks less like a deception.
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zulu2401
Posts: 2009

Re: Question on rules

Post by zulu2401 »

Siemo wrote:
zulu2401 wrote:
Eos wrote:Both unattended gathering and releasing pets to kill other players in Trammel ruleset facets are policed by staff. The latter is why you found yourself in jail.

To avoid breaking any rules, the best course of action is to let us know if you suspect an unattended gatherer is around. Of course, we do random checks all the time, so eventually they will be caught even if no one pages. It is better when they get caught by us, as we will delete any obtained resources and jail/ban the accounts for longer periods of time.

(And you are right in assuming that repeated pet releasing offenses not only mean kill counts, but also jail time.)
It does you absolutely no good to jail people for things that can't be strictly enforced because they go right back to doing it. I don't even bother paging when I catch someone afk farming in fel. I just kill them and watch on my stealther for 10 people to roll in searching for me. Response times usually around 20-45 mins vs waiting 3 days for a page response. The level of scripting here is ridiculous when it comes to farming. Most of the time I just stand next to the afk samps and they auto target me with their shitty script so I can kill them on a blue or a red.
Afk farmers die in guards zone chopping and mining all day long too. I actually have a script that works baracoon unattended just to give you an idea of how out of control uosteam is. Disabling auto loot did nothing to stop it. They use easyuo auto loot which has been going on for a long ass time now.
I could honestly care less what happens or how it's handled but since the topic is open for discussion I feel freedom to throw some stones.
TL;DR, what Gargl Kark said.

I just hope staff could be more honest about it and just enable autoloot (because what it discourages is on keyboard farming, because I have to loot everything manually, and it stinks when you're luck hunting jewelry, for example, because this is not an easy game and that means thousands of iterations) and come clean with the rules about afk gathering with something that actually can be enforced, so it looks less like a deception.
More severe punishment would definitely help. Instead of jailing them constantly create limitations like 3rd offense bans on that account and stop jailing people for one-two days and start throwing weeks and months at them. You're loot problem is easily solved with easyuo software and the massive amount of scripts you can find on their website. It also allows you to set mod intensity
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